Monday, April 12, 2010

Ideas for Development at the Old Ickes Homes

A reader who is a frequent contributor to the blog writes:
I wanted to get folks opinions/ideas on what to do with the Ickes site. I may have a voice to present or at least share ideas with the CHA planning board. In my opinion, I think they should not invest in actual housing, but go beyond the typical middle-ground retail and really try to establish this site as a place to shop, visit, etc..for folks visiting McCormick Place, Chinatown or residents of the South Loop.

We've spoken to numerous people about housing in the neighborhood and it's obvious that their is way to much supply (however hopefully this is just a result of the lagging economy). The fact that this large piece of land is on a high profile road in between McCormick Place and Chinatown seems to support the idea stated above. The question is...what to do with the land?

Chances are that there will also be a new CTA stop at State and Cermak within the next 5 or 10 years just adding to the foot traffic in the area.

For more background and an update on the current demolition plans at the Ickes Homes (and other public housing) here is a good article from April 4th in the Sun Times.

(Hat Tip: SMR!)

87 comments:

Anonymous said...

I'm in favor of anything other than housing, especially if the CHA is involved in the housing. Why in the world would anyone replace one housing project with another? Even if you make the new housing "nicer looking" than Ickes, it's inevitable that it will become a drug/gang/crime haven eventually.

Further, no data center please! Did anyone else notice that the once-planned commercial development at Taylor and Canal, South Loop Commons, is now being converted into a data center? The sign is up on the building's facade on the southwest corner of Taylor and Canal.

Also, can someone please explain to me why/how a CTA station at State and Cermak makes sense? Isn't there already an under-utilized station withing spitting distance at Clark and Cermak?

I've heard people attempt to justify this station by arguing its proximity to McCormick Place, which is nonsensical for many reasons. One, convention-goers do NOT use public transportation! Shuttle buses are convention-goers' preferred method of transport, always has been and always will be. Two, with McCormick becoming more and more of a white elephant every year, building a CTA stop just to serve McCormick is ridiculous.

FGFM said...

Even if you make the new housing "nicer looking" than Ickes, it's inevitable that it will become a drug/gang/crime haven eventually.

Sounds like you have a theory! I would put up a parking garage to handle weekend Chinatown visitors and offer kiss-and-ride service to downtown commuters. And I find it a little silly that guys on the Internet are so opposed to data centers.

Anonymous said...

So FGFM's idea is to cater to people commuting away from the Sloop and visitors parking in Chinatown.

I'm even more convinced now than ever that FGFM is NOT a Sloop resident, but clearly some Troll.

Anonymous said...

Please read up on the issues that Praire District Residents are having with the Data Center on Praire/Cermak (noise).

FGFM said...

So FGFM's idea is to cater to people commuting away from the Sloop and visitors parking in Chinatown.

Don't be an idiot, a kiss-and-ride is primarily for people going into the Loop from further out. They have one at Archer and Halsted. And God forbid that there should be sufficient parking in Chinatown.

I'm even more convinced now than ever that FGFM is NOT a Sloop resident, but clearly some Troll.

Who cares what you think?

FGFM said...

Please read up on the issues that Praire District Residents are having with the Data Center on Praire/Cermak (noise).

No one seems to mind the data center at Harrison and Federal, not to mention the central office at Clark and Congress. In any event, someone's gotta live next to the stockyards.

Anonymous said...

I have to agree that a CTA station at State and Cermak is not needed. As to what to do with the land, I'm not sure. I agree that the area definitely doesn't need anymore housing built. Something that would draw people to the area would be nice and good for Chinatown.

Dave said...

If anything there should be a station at 18th and State/Wabash. As for the Ickes, some kind of retail would be nice but you have to be careful not to attract the element from across 55 to prey on the convention goers. No more housing though. BTW, can we close that ghetto liquor store next Reggies? I feel like I am living in Englewood when I drive by it.

Anonymous said...

And the Currency Exchange, the cricKet mobile, etc.

Anonymous said...

Any time a parcel this big gets developed by one group all at once, it's bad news. Dearborn Park is a great example. It's a successful neighborhood on its own terms, but it sits apart from the rest of the South Loop--literally walled off--which made sense at the time but doesn't anymore. DP I will all start to look dated and frumpy pretty soon (my family already assumed it was a "project" when they first saw it), and then the whole thing will have to be redeveloped at once. There's no room for adaptive re-use of any of the buildings. And so on.

The best way to avoid this? Just parcel the land out and sell it to the highest bidder. Don't allow any single bidder to win more than two adjacent parcels, to encourage granular human-scaled structures. Then just let development happen at its own pace.

FGFM said...

I feel like I am living in Englewood when I drive by [the liquor store].

Can't afford Lincoln Park, eh?

FGFM said...

Then just let development happen at its own pace.

Shall we have people build their own roads while they are at it?

Anonymous said...

Just what exactly do you think those white thingies on the map are?

Believe it or not, most of this city was built without a master plan.

Anonymous said...

People don't want any kind of housing for what reason? Because of traffic congestion? But it's OK to have a big parking garage or an attraction (of course, no suggestions on who will be interested in building this "attraction"). Or retail, except that no retailers other than mobile phone stores are interested in areas without street life or residential density. If they're having trouble filling up vacant spaces on Motor Row, what chance does this area have?

If there really is going to be a new CTA stop then I say housing is the way to go. Midrises and highrises with some retail along Cermak and State. And bring in some different architects so we don't get all blah stuff like Central Station.

FGFM said...

Just what exactly do you think those white thingies on the map are?

I think we called them "lines" back in the day.

Believe it or not, most of this city was built without a master plan.

So much for zoning.

FGFM said...

People don't want any kind of housing for what reason? Because of traffic congestion? But it's OK to have a big parking garage or an attraction (of course, no suggestions on who will be interested in building this "attraction").

I'm the only guy who mentioned a garage, but I have nothing against public housing.

David Trang said...

Garage, really? Talk about an eye sore.

As for the train stop, I second the idea of the stop making the most sense on State and 18th/16th. The tracks are there, we just need some steps and a platform.

FGFM said...

Garage, really? Talk about an eye sore.

God forbid that we should have a modern garage where people can actually park and transfer to the CTA. Much better to auction off the property blindly in the middle of a real estate crisis so that someone can open a scrap metal yard.

Anonymous said...

Nothing viable or desirable to most will ever go in that spot as long as the last few Ickes buildings remain. For this parcel to truly be utilized to its fullest potential, those last few buildings must go. I had my car towed once when parked in an overnight construction zone along Prairie Ave., the car wasn't impounded, but rather moved to 24th street, near the Ickes. Good lord! I thought I was airlifted into a war zone when the cab dropped me off at my car! This was last spring (prior to any demolition), on a weekday around 10am - I can only imagine what it's like in the evening or weekends in the summer.

My point is this: there is a reason retailers have completely ignored this stretch of land which, in reality, would be a great place to set up shop due to its constant traffic, proximity to many local highways and CTA, and closeness to McCormick, Soldier Field, and the Museum capmus. The projects! (And I'm including Hilliard and the subsidized housing on 20th and Indiana as well).

Also, Data Center? No! More housing? Never! Parking garage? Absolutely not! There is a parking garage 1/2 block to the east on top of the McCormick West building that is completely empty almost every weekday.

Anonymous said...

I don't understand the rationale for leaving any public housing in Bronzeville. It made a certain perverse sense when the neighborhood was overcrowded (because god forbid black people live anywhere but Bronzeville), but today much of it is virtually depopulated.

Given that the neighborhood already has vastly more housing supply than it has demand, all public housing is doing is keeping more buildings and lots vacant than would otherwise be the case. Give the remaining residents vouchers to pay for rent, dynamite the buildings, and call the experiment quits. It'll help both the landlords and the tenants--gee, a floor of a greystone or a place in the PJ's, think think think.

I like Anonymous's idea to parcel out the land and attempt to recover the pre-projects urban landscape.

FGFM said...

Nothing viable or desirable to most will ever go in that spot as long as the last few Ickes buildings remain.

The last people already moved out, genius.

My point is this: there is a reason retailers have completely ignored this stretch of land which, in reality, would be a great place to set up shop due to its constant traffic, proximity to many local highways and CTA, and closeness to McCormick, Soldier Field, and the Museum capmus. [sic] The projects! (And I'm including Hilliard and the subsidized housing on 20th and Indiana as well).

One note Johnny. They torn down Stateway Gardens and there is no retail on State over there except for the cluster at 35th. That's because there is practically no foot traffic.

Also, Data Center? No! More housing? Never! Parking garage? Absolutely not!

You are starting to sound like Dr. Bronner, particularly since retail is already pretty spotty.

FGFM said...

Given that the neighborhood already has vastly more housing supply than it has demand, all public housing is doing is keeping more buildings and lots vacant than would otherwise be the case. Give the remaining residents vouchers to pay for rent, dynamite the buildings, and call the experiment quits.

Your lurid fantasy is particularly amusing given that a new building for geriatrics has been built at 53rd & Calumet. And most of those vacant lots are owned by the city because the previous owners didn't keep up their property.

Anonymous said...

Seriously, how is it a lurid fantasy? I'm not playing dumb, I really don't understand you.

Public housing was meant to solve an undersupply of affordable housing, but Bronzeville has scads of affordable housing. And much of it is nice, or could be with a little work. We're talking well-built century-old greystones. Beats the hell out of a concrete block, right?

The city could run a tax incentive program for landlords to fix up their buildings and rent to Section 8 tenants, and it would still be saving money from not having to keep up a discredited form of high-maintenance public housing.

Section 8 is meant to solve the problem of people who can't afford to pay rent. That's the real issue, right? So why not use the right tool for the job? I honestly don't get where you're coming from.

Anonymous said...

two words: FENCED PARKLAND

there is no reason to develop this plot of land until the Ickes buildings are razed and there is a need for a multi-use facility.

FGFM said...

Seriously, how is it a lurid fantasy? I'm not playing dumb, I really don't understand you.

You must know at some level that they are not going to tear down all public housing in this town, particularly since they just rehabbed the Dearborn Homes.

Public housing was meant to solve an undersupply of affordable housing, but Bronzeville has scads of affordable housing. And much of it is nice, or could be with a little work. We're talking well-built century-old greystones. Beats the hell out of a concrete block, right?

The expense of fixing up a lot of those places would be greater than the replacement cost. For example, they are talking about spending 100 million to rehab the Rosenwald Apartments which is almost a quarter million per unit.

Anonymous said...

...and renovating the Dearborn Homes, which are clearly the best of the State Street corridor projects, is costing 156.6 million for 660 units--a quarter million per unit. Which do you think will be more desirable, and which do you think will have lower maintenance costs? My money's on Rosenwald.

FGFM said...

My money's on Rosenwald.

You don't know the first thing about it, but who wouldn't want to live by one of the most violent census tracts in the country?

http://www.walletpop.com/insurance/most-dangerous-neighborhoods/

2. Chicago, Ill.
Neighborhood: State St./Garfield Blvd.
Found Within ZIP Code(s): 60609
Predicted Annual Violent Crimes: 275
Violent Crime Rate (per 1,000): 264.17
My Chances of Becoming a Victim Here (in one year): 1 in 4

Dave said...

I vote for putting in anything at the old Ickes site that can provide FGFM with a job.....and maybe a non computer based social life.

FGFM said...

I vote for putting in anything at the old Ickes site that can provide FGFM with a job.

I have a real good job.

....and maybe a non computer based social life.

One can always dream. Would you like to follow my Twitter account?

Anonymous said...

While fenced parkland would be great - unfortunately, in that area, it would become an open-air drug market and overrun by bums.

Anonymous said...

How about a Soylent Green processing plant?

FGFM said...

unfortunately, in that area, it would become an open-air drug market and overrun by bums.

How come I don't see any sort of activity like that on State Street between 35th and Pershing?

Anonymous said...

Because State and 35th isn't 24th and Wabash.

Because at State and 35th you have the presence of IIT, De La Salle, and the White Sox.

Because State and 35th, isn't across the street from Hilliard Homes.

Etc.

FGFM said...

How come there are no stores on State Street between 35th and Pershing aside from the SW corner of 35th if it's so great?

Mustafa said...

I know it's controversial, but why the hell shouldn't a Wal-Mart go on this lot? I mean, it improves the accessibility of affordable goods, provides locals jobs and actually makes use of the massive vacant space. Also, logistically, it would be hella easy for Wal-Mart to get its trucks in and out of the area since it sits between two huge highways.

Anonymous said...

I'm not not sure if it's viable or not, but this is a large enough space in close enough proximity for adding an arcade/market place. They are(or were) planning to add a market place on lower wacker leading to the river and calling it the "market district" so why not have one here?
Granted, the south loop is currently hurting for retail, but with the red line, proposed green line, and water taxi accessibility from Ping Tom, and many bike lanes it could be a destination market place. Having Chinatown, little Italy/Italian Village, Little Village/Pilsen, Bronzeville, and Greek Town all so close, it may also be a great way to celebrate the diversity of the area. While also promoting small business in the area.

Also, it if were successful, the city may consider expanding the riverwalk south, adding another public walkway to the center of the city.

FGFM:Please be easy on me, this is my first time posting!

Solo said...

Anon - Finally, an actual idea (market place idea). That's what I am looking for, vision for this site. Of course, it would have to be a higher-end or middle-groud European, all weather set-up versus tables, etc..but good idea.

Anonymous said...

FGFM: nobody is saying 35th at State is "so great.". However, Anon does have a point, residents of public housing projects, like Hillard and Longrove, time and time again have let this city down and abused taxpayers by turning any type of parkland or open space in or near the projects into absolute hellholes.

Plus, there is a Starbucks at the corner of 35th and State. I don't think you'll ever see one at 24th and State.

I really like the idea of a marketplace! Similar to the French Marketplace recently opened in the west loop at the metra station. Something classy, NOT anything like the Maxwell Market.

FGFM said...

However, Anon does have a point, residents of public housing projects, like Hillard and Longrove, [sic] time and time again have let this city down and abused taxpayers by turning any type of parkland or open space in or near the projects into absolute hellholes.

This sort of deranged ranting is really getting tiresome. Long Grove House and the Hilliard Homes are not hellholes, absolute or otherwise.

Plus, there is a Starbucks at the corner of 35th and State. I don't think you'll ever see one at 24th and State.

I don't see why not, aside from the fact that it's not a major corner. I really get the impression that you are a newcomer to the area who came from some sort of racist backwater.

I really like the idea of a marketplace! Similar to the French Marketplace recently opened in the west loop at the metra [sic] station. Something classy, NOT anything like the Maxwell Market.

Sure, let's blow some more public TIF money on private businesses that would never be able to sustain themselves otherwise.

Anonymous said...

Typical FGFM logic: if you disagree with me, you're a racist.

Anonymous said...

Love how FGFM is up in arms over potentially-blown TIF funding for private businesses but has no problem with public housing of gangs, criminals, and lifelong do-nothing welfare bloodsuckers who thank honest taxpayers for the free government-subsidized housing by destroying the property.

FGFM said...

Typical FGFM logic: if you disagree with me, you're a racist.

Protesting a bit too much again.

FGFM said...

Love how FGFM is up in arms over potentially-blown TIF funding for private businesses but has no problem with public housing of gangs, criminals, and lifelong do-nothing welfare bloodsuckers who thank honest taxpayers for the free government-subsidized housing by destroying the property.

Heh.

Shedding Light on the Shadow Budget

In the case of the market, the City Council, at Daley's urging, voted in 2006 to spend a total of $12 million in taxpayer money on construction of a new shopping area in the Ogilvie Transportation Center; $8 million of that sum went to the French Market. The project happens to be headed by a well-to-do, politically connected developer who's contributed thousands of dollars to the mayor's campaign coffers. And the city plans to spend another $23 million in the River West TIF district through 2011.

By contrast Roseland, one of the poorest neighborhoods in town, will get just $5 million to spend through 2011.

---

So, who exactly are the social parasites again?

MarkChicago said...

"So, who exactly are the social parasites again?"

What is your argument FGFM?

"I really get the impression that you are a newcomer to the area who came from some sort of racist backwater."

There you go projecting on people again and ignoring predominate socioeconomic themes.

A few pulling the cart, many riding in it, idealists like FGFM yelling to "pull faster" from the sidelines.

Anonymous said...

Um, Roseland only gets 5 million in TIF funds because that's proportionate to the amount of Roseland residents that actually contribute to society and pay taxes!

Why are you sh!tting on the marketplace idea? Because there won't be any welfare handouts involved?

Anonymous said...

Seriously, I'm not quite sure what FGFM adds to this blog, besides constant annoying comments that nitpick about grammar, childish retorts, and calling everyone a racist. It's really getting annoying to have every conversation on Sloopin devolve into a fight between FGFM and everyone else. Is this FGFM's blog or is this a blog about the South Loop? Hey FGFM, if you want to dictate every topic of discussion, why don't you get people to go to your own blog?

FGFM said...

There you go projecting on people again and ignoring predominate socioeconomic themes.

You're my enemy.

FGFM said...

Um, Roseland only gets 5 million in TIF funds because that's proportionate to the amount of Roseland residents that actually contribute to society and pay taxes!

Sounds like you have a theory!

FGFM said...

Seriously, I'm not quite sure what FGFM adds to this blog, besides constant annoying comments that nitpick about grammar, childish retorts, and calling everyone a racist.

Yet another meltdown.

Hey FGFM, if you want to dictate every topic of discussion, why don't you get people to go to your own blog?

Funny, you are my primary visitor!

Anonymous said...

FGFM said...
"You're my enemy."
"Sounds like you have a theory!"
"Yet another meltdown."
"Funny, you are my primary visitor!"

Why thanks FGFM for your childish retorts. You have proven my point.

Come on Sloopy, this guy is seriously ruining the quality of your blog. Do something!

FGFM said...

Come on Sloopy, this guy is seriously ruining the quality of your blog. Do something!

I'm got a new blog post for you, racist anon.

Lazy Libertarians

Anonymous said...

FGFM:

As the original poster of the market place idea, I'd like to offer up a response to your TIF comment.

While you are correct, Roselawn is receiving much lower TIF funding than the West Loop, most of that (as a previous poster pointed out) is due to population density. Also, the revival of places like Roselawn, Brighten Park, McKinley Park, Back of the Yards etc won't come from additional TIF funding, but rather from initiatives for business to return to those areas. The South side of the city is historically rooted in manufacturing, processing; blue collar jobs, which supported the aforementioned neighborhoods. Improving the sidewalks in Mckinley Park is not going to get people to move there, nor will it attract large business that support the neighborhood to the area, that a new manufacturing plant would.

TIF funds are available to renovate, and preserve historical buildings as well as improve conditions of areas with a high population concentration. That's why The French Market received to much money, as well as The Chicago Theater when it was being reconstructed. That's also why The South Loop as the largest TIF fund allocation.

There are only so many old manufacturing buildings that can be converted to lofts, so much empty land that can be converted into high rises etc. A market, be it TIF funded or not, would not only allow for more small business, but also improve community relations between the South Loop, Chinatown, Bronzeville, etc, that have become sharply demarcated by the Ike's homes. Chicago is segregated enough as is, why perpetuate that? Promote interaction, promote small business, promote community.

Hopefully that helps explain where I was coming from....

Anonymous said...

FGFM said...
"I'm got a new blog post for you, racist anon."

I am not the racist anon! I don't know the racist anon and I don't support the racist anon. I am just a reader of Sloopin that is sick of all of FGFM's comments that often have nothing to do with the South Loop topics being discussed here.

FGFM said...

I am not the racist anon! I don't know the racist anon and I don't support the racist anon. I am just a reader of Sloopin that is sick of all of FGFM's comments that often have nothing to do with the South Loop topics being discussed here.

Then post under a name if you don't want be be confused with him. And I don't see how my posting on threads like this interferes with your enjoyment of the threads featuring Groupon offers, etc.

FGFM said...

Hopefully that helps explain where I was coming from....

Frankly, they can do almost anything they want with TIF money and it can be transferred between adjoining districts. Furthermore, retail is in the tank and I don't see why a yuppie market should get a subsidy when existing stores and restaurants are going or have gone under.

Anonymous said...

I never said it had to be TIF funded. In fact, I would hope that it wouldn't be so that TIF money could better be allocated to things the entire city would be able to utilize, e.g. walkways, transportation improvements. I am uncertain of how bridging neighborhoods that have completely different demographics would induce yuppies. TIF funds can be shifts, you are right and I misspoke. The 2010 budget has the South Loop as the largest district.

Anonymous said...

"Yuppie market."

Why don't you just say: I don't want anything on that corner that caters to young white professionals.

Again, FGFM's comments have deeper racist underpinnings than any other comments.

As another poster stated, a marketplace would definitely bring races and cultures together - despite FGFM's best efforts to tear us apart.

FGFM said...

Why don't you just say: I don't want anything on that corner that caters to young white professionals.

They can park in the garage along with me, the not-so-young white guy who is better educated and makes more money than you do. And isn't there this rather large Chinese community on the other side of the expressway? I don't see why Chinatown couldn't expand that way.

Again, FGFM's comments have deeper racist underpinnings than any other comments.

Reminds me of this message I got on YouTube.

As another poster stated, a marketplace would definitely bring races and cultures together - despite FGFM's best efforts to tear us apart.

I'm not the guy ranting about "lifelong do-nothing welfare bloodsuckers."

Anonymous said...

FGFM, as a reader of this blog I would really like to see you posting more constructive comments instead of construing peoples words and comments. Plus your comment about your education and income prove nothing more than that fact that you can't teach or buy class. Please prove me wrong....

FGFM said...

FGFM, as a reader of this blog I would really like to see you posting more constructive comments instead of construing peoples words and comments.

I would like to see you posting under an identifiable name. Furthermore, I am going to continue to violently object to rhetoric like "lifelong do-nothing welfare bloodsuckers" and crackpot ideas based on racial animus like tearing down all public hosing.

Plus your comment about your education and income prove nothing more than that fact that you can't teach or buy class.

Indeed, particularly since I was accused of being hostile to the interests of affluent Caucasians when I happen to be one myself.

Please prove me wrong....

I owe you nothing.

Anonymous said...

FGFM, what's the difference if someone posts as an ANON or not, you may as well be anonymous with an account name. It doesn't add anything to your identity and no one has any idea who you are in REAL LIFE so it makes no difference.

"I would like to see you posting under an identifiable name. Furthermore, I am going to continue to violently object to rhetoric like "lifelong do-nothing welfare bloodsuckers" and crackpot ideas based on racial animus like tearing down all public hosing."

So should we be looking for you wearing tights and a cape?

Public Housing is a terrible idea that hasn't worked. Look at the studies:
http://www.manhattan-institute.org/html/americas_trillion-dollar_housi.htm

Saying people in public housing doesn't consitute racism is there are people from ALL RACIAL backgrounds that utilize it. I'm not saying they are blood suckers, but rather that you are reading for denotation and not connotation. It's a pure literary error.

You're right, you don' owe anyone anything, but your comments are nothing more than masturbatory efforts to buttress some idealism to you say you are standing up for, but in reality the people that actually are helping the poor don't have time to sit in on the internet all day because they are actually outside doing things to help people, not just writing about it...

I think this is you:
http://stuffwhitepeoplelike.com/2008/02/10/62-knowing-whats-best-for-poor-people/

I'm sure your the guy in the Prius with Che shirt on...

MarkChicago said...

"They can park in the garage along with me, the not-so-young white guy who is better educated and makes more money than you do."

Coming from a guy who tells people to "stay classy" on another post, clearly some education and income insecurity.

When you park in this theoretical garage, get a good spot for your Volvo where everyone can see your bumper stickers.

FGFM said...

FGFM, what's the difference if someone posts as an ANON or not, you may as well be anonymous with an account name. It doesn't add anything to your identity and no one has any idea who you are in REAL LIFE so it makes no difference.

One person can't be distinguished from the other, idiot.

www.manhattan-institute.org

Give me a break.

I'm sure your the guy in the Prius with Che shirt on...

More stereotypes, I have nothing to do with that sort of stuff.

FGFM said...

When you park in this theoretical garage, get a good spot for your Volvo where everyone can see your bumper stickers.

More stereotypes from another bigot.

Anonymous said...

FGFM:

"One person can't be distinguished from the other, idiot."

Right, so why even have a account name. Also, I will cite the work of Judith Donath an anonoymity and internet "trolling". which prove my point. But you probably know more than her, I mean she only works at MIT.....

"Trolls can be costly in several ways. A troll can disrupt the discussion on a newsgroup, disseminate bad advice, and damage the feeling of trust in the newsgroup community. Furthermore, in a group that has become sensitized to trolling — where the rate of deception is high — many honestly naïve questions may be quickly rejected as trollings. This can be quite off-putting to the new user who upon venturing a first posting is immediately bombarded with angry accusations. Even if the accusation is unfounded, being branded a troll is quite damaging to one's online reputation."

She also had you in mind with....

"Trolls can be costly in several ways. A troll can disrupt the discussion on a newsgroup, disseminate bad advice, and damage the feeling of trust in the newsgroup community. Furthermore, in a group that has become sensitized to trolling — where the rate of deception is high — many honestly naïve questions may be quickly rejected as trollings. This can be quite off-putting to the new user who upon venturing a first posting is immediately bombarded with angry accusations. Even if the accusation is unfounded, being branded a troll is quite damaging to one's online reputation."

So I'm not an idiot, you're just ignorant.

Also the DSM-V will have a section on internet trolling and loss of identity on the internet.

Also, isn't calling people you watch for 10 seconds "Lazy Libertarians" stereotyping?

Happy Trolling!

Anonymous said...

Well isn't Karma a beaotch! I messed up and put the same quote twice. Hear is what I meant to add for the first quote. Sorry Dogg, my accident.

"In the physical world there is an inherent unity to the self, for the body provides a compelling and convenient definition of identity. The norm is: one body, one identity ... The virtual world is different. It is composed of information rather than matter."

FGFM said...

I mean she only works at MIT.....

Appeal to authority.

Also the DSM-V will have a section on internet trolling and loss of identity on the internet.

Isn't that the same journal that used to claim that homosexuality was a mental disorder? Psychiatry is hardly an exact science and you are hardly in a position to pass judgment on me (over the Internet!) because you are my political enemy - not to mention that you probably have more experience as a patient than a practitioner.

Also, isn't calling people you watch for 10 seconds "Lazy Libertarians" stereotyping?

You are pretty dense, aren't you?

Anonymous said...

"Isn't that the same journal that used to claim that homosexuality was a mental disorder"

Nope! Wrong again!

"because you are my political enemy"

How?

"you are hardly in a position to pass judgment on me (over the Internet!)" followed by "not to mention that you probably have more experience as a patient than a practitioner."

Pots calling kettles...

And I'm a doctor actually, so no, I spend much more time as a practitioner.

This has been fun, but I'm now bored with it. Enjoy the rest of your weekend. Back to real work.

MarkChicago said...

"Pots calling kettles..."

That's stereotyping!

FGFM said...

And I'm a doctor actually, so no, I spend much more time as a practitioner.

Last name Mengele by any chance?

Anonymous said...

I would like to see a high school be built on part of the land. There is already a beautiful elementary school there. Build a sports complex with a football/track & baseball field. The South Loop needs a neighborhood high school - the neighborhood school is currently Phillips at 39th street.

Anon_Slooper said...

1. FGFM - your 'schtick' is getting old. Let real discussion take place. Read more, post less.

2. High School Idea - not likely with plan to build out Jones, the idea was to have this become a Middle school complex. Might have been done sooner had the principle at South Loop School not gotten in the way of respecting progress in the neighborhood and the right for taxpayers to benifit from actually paying taxes.

3. Interesting that there is already an anchor park there, yet most others in the South Loop actually turned over to CPD...

4. A clue, take a look at owners of the surrounding property on State...

Anonymous said...

A marketplace, contained within a larger scale entertainment and retail complex would be great. Build a complex that caters not only to convention-goers and residents, but also tourists and suburbanites looking for an escape into the city. A large resort-type hotel could anchor and shopping/dining options could line the perimiter. Put a large green space in the middle that could host a marketplace/farmers market on summer weekends.

FGFM said...

1. FGFM - your 'schtick' is getting old. Let real discussion take place. Read more, post less.

In other words, don't challenge the bigots. I love Groupons!

Anon_Slooper said...

No FGFM, give the juvenile responses a rest and please leak real adult discussion take place.

As to the idea of a "Build a complex that caters not only to convention-goers and residents, but also tourists and suburbanites looking for an escape into the city. A large resort-type hotel could anchor and shopping/dining options could line the perimiter."

I too would dream of such, but not sure such a complex will not be closely feasible for a long time, long time if ever (too bad the White Sox or Chicago Fire did not build there to anchor) unless you had some huge anchor,:
a) McCormick Place - The Hotel business has not been so kind
b) Motor Row is/was to serve as that commercial anchor, with the Michigan Ave brand name, it is a tough road event there.
c) Roosevelt Collection - look at the difficulty they will be facing in a better location (relative to population with $$income) - such a place at Ikes would not be a while unless you have a huge anchor.

Some steps of my plan would be:
Step 1: Continue to pump up Motor Row with shops, restaurants, boutique hotels to serve McCormick and create a destination for this section.
(this latently benefits the property West like Ikes and North - Ikes)
Step 2: Build a Cermak surface trolly/cable car between China Town, Red Line, over to McCormick Place and swing up Michigan Ave in Motor Row. Bring links and tools to join the areas, provide a McCormick Place Circlular (for a fraction of the cost of an L Station)

Step 3 - Focus on Frontage Development of Cermak Corridor between China Town and McCormick Place. What is being done now is nowhere near the objectives they laid out in the Central Area Action Plan.
Step 4 - Open up Ikes property to a development contest or plan, create its own TIF. Go unique from:
> Commercial Anchor like an IKEA
> Educational (like a college extension)
> Light (Green) manufacturing

Anonymous said...

Anon-Slooper - Great ideas. The trolley idea is something that I wish really could be done. MotorRow (S.Michigan Ave/South of Cermak) still has major plans going on behind the scene.

FGFM said...

No FGFM, give the juvenile responses a rest and please leak real adult discussion take place.

I reject your characterization of my responses and what passes for "discussion" around here. It's rather telling that you attack me and ignore the racist rhetoric from various people around here. Silence equals death.

Anonymous said...

I appreciate FGFM's comments. He adds to the discussion usually, and the defensiveness usually doesn't start until someone else dismisses his ideas as being ignorant simply because they don't agree.

If everyone just agreed, there would be no discussion.

Anon_Slooper said...

It's not about him, I am sure he is a nice guy, it's about his stupid responses and hijacking what could be meaningful discussion and ideas. I want to hear sound, well thought out and researched ideas that are different from others, or build on others ideas. But I am tired of sifting through the same childish responses.

Here's an idea, don't respond to everything and it will go away. 20+ posts and he has one meaningful post with information to discuss on the topic.

FGFM said...

It's not about him, I am sure he is a nice guy, it's about his stupid responses and hijacking what could be meaningful discussion and ideas. I want to hear sound, well thought out and researched ideas that are different from others, or build [sic] on others [sic] ideas. But I am tired of sifting through the same childish responses.

Again, funny how you don't seem to mind racially inflammatory rhetoric. Perhaps that's because you were the guy doing it given that you tend to make the same sort of little mistakes in your English?

Here's an idea, don't respond to everything and it will go away. 20+ posts and he has one meaningful post with information to discuss on the topic.

How's that strategy working out for you?

Anon_Slooper said...

No it was not me, nor most others who made those moronic posts. Most of us realize that the social engineering experiment that is the Near South side is a far more complex and enduring process than most can comprehend, and there are idiots on both sides of the discussion. You have proven that along with the others. Read more , post less!

Anonymous said...

I can't believe how FGFM so transparently and consistently attempts to bring race into each and every thread. Seriously, where would people like that be if racism didn't exist? People like that are the reason racism will never cease to exist.

Nobody ever brings race into the discussion until FGFM does so in order to attack anyone he/she disagrees with. Everytime someone points out the obvious problems with certain populations within our community, that person is automatically labeled as racist.

For the last time: stop confusing racism with reality.

Tim said...

Anonymous said... For the last time: stop confusing racism with reality.

Confusion is a good word for this constant racial bickering. The reality is that FGFM (and other readers like myself) might be confusing innocent anons with a certain racist troll. In fairness to both anons and FGFM, while the rhetoric of both were somewhat heated, I did not notice any mention of race until the anon at April 15, 2010 7:17 AM.

I find it odd that you ignore the troll's comments, at least one of which was deleted and cited as racist by the blog's editor, and place full blame on FGFM for this situation.

I can think of two ways to dispel this confusion:

1. If you are not the racist troll, start using a nickname. You will no longer be confused with anyone else.

2. If you are the racist troll, please create an anonymous email address, provide it to FGFM, and continue your bickering there.

FGFM said...

Most of us realize that the social engineering experiment that is the Near South side is a far more complex and enduring process than most can comprehend, and there are idiots on both sides of the discussion.

And I happen to know far more about it than you. Physician, heal thyself!

Anonymous said...

I agree with all the comments regarding the presence of Hilliard Homes and Long Grove House being major issues when it comes to seeing this corner used to its maximum potential.

There is a reason the south side of Chicago is being referred to as "Chi-raq" on blogs all over the country right now. These animals are worse than most terrorists!

FGFM said...

There is a reason the south side of Chicago is being referred to as "Chi-raq" on blogs all over the country right now. These animals are worse than most terrorists!

Thank you for your support!

Anonymous said...

Lets talk plane and simple. Until the Ickes homes and Long Grove house are present, the South Loop will be at a standstill in terms of retail. Most business owners only want to take on so much. Shootings, I agree happen everywhere, but they seem to be concentrated in certain areas and more frequent. It is what it is. Agree or don't agree, retailers don't want to be next to these Public Housing, unless they are a currency exchange, fast food, Criket/Boost Mobile or Liquor store. This is from pure observation. You are going to get resteraunts,starbucks,popular clothing retailers etc. coming in the southern part of the south loop. I am not a racist, I just understand the reality or situations.